It's a problem of marketing, mostly. But I do know that most Zoomers that are creative tend to look back to the 20th century for inspiration simply because the stuff they grew up with and were told was great, simply, well, isn't. You have to have a base to build from, and their base was broken from the get-go.
Back when Iron Age magazine started last year there were people wondering why no one was making action adventure magazines before them, and they were all pointed toward Cirsova, which had been running for over half a decade at that point. The people complaining simply didn't know they existed, because there isn't really any reach or platforms for such things to get out anymore. If we want something we will not get it from any sort of aggregator or trusted hub. That's a difficult adjustment for older generations who always relied on such things, but that's going to be how it is for awhile. Finding good art yourself is now part of the process thanks to the failure of the mainstream to do its job.
I get where Zoomers are coming from, and I know a lot are doing new stuff inspired by the past. That’s great! I hope they continue to be inspired by, and not imitative of. We don’t need a new thing that’s kinda like Robert E. Howard or whatever. We need people to write and create in their own voices.
Do you know what Zoomers are good at? Comedy. They have a strain of absurdism that seems to be the only way to view clown world and stay sane. I love it.
That’s right; we can learn from the old masters, but we must live and write in our own time. Isekai and LitRPG are not degeneration, but the continued evolution of literature.
This right here. The internet shattered mainstream culture into a million niches, and though the gatekeepers have discredited themselves, the good stuff does not get found because it’s lost in an ocean of content.
I also believe it’s why there’s so much vitriol online — it’s the *only* way to be seen. Creatives didn’t have to worry about that before because not only did publishers, agencies, and studios handle that for them, people still got their information from established, centralized sources.
But the Internet broke the established sources too. Now they too had to join the outrage game, just to compete. I must say, global pop culture is poorer for it.
The fragmentation into niche subcultures is a blessing and a curse. Everyone can find a hyper-specific bit of culture that appeals to THEM and maybe 50 other people, but it becomes so insular it’s hard to see it sticking around. I have no answer to this problem.
I will defend pixel art in modern games here: it looks good, and it can be done on a budget. Remember, most indies don’t have a big war chest.
As for the endless nostalgia, I think there may be another reason for it: it’s safe. If you create something new, you risk the wrath of a million neon-haired activists calling you the worst istophobe since George W. Bush. And even if it doesn’t end in a tearful apology for not following the dictates of the decentralized censorship board, it might not sell. Against that kind of risk, strip-mining the 1980s will last you until the Gen Y types die out around the 2060s or so.
Then again, the Japanese manage to get new IPs out and make them popular; maybe that’s why anime and manga have gotten so popular. But we’re running out of Japanese folks, so that’ll have a limited shelf life.
You make good points. Maybe what is to blame are the self-imposed political restrictions that prevent those in control from telling stories that resonate. We can’t have a big dumb man rescue a princess from a dragon anymore, for example.
I have a theory that so much work is weak because anything that arouses strong emotions risks cancellation. Better to write safe stuff that won’t ruffle feathers, I guess.
If anything, this reinforces my own answer of the melting pot. The problem with "progression" is that there is simply a finite amount of innovation at our disposal. Technological, conceptual, etc. There is only so much "new" can mean in the world of art. So when faced with a world not interested in innovation, on top of the fact that feels like there is nowhere left to innovate, what do you do?
In my case, you shove everything you love in a blender, hit puree, and hope for the best lol. So the strains and traces of what was are there in varying degrees, but it's all brought together in a way that no one really has.
100 percent. That’s what creativity is, right? Combining things, seeing connections where others don’t? That’s what artists in all mediums have done since the beginning of art. So keep it up!
I've been saying this recently. People give me shit because I say music was better in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, but I think the world was objectively better when Prog Rock and Metal bands of the time were writing songs about abjectly crazy shit, and today almost everything is a tepid, sludgy blend of the worst pop music you've ever heard, the last vestiges of unintelligble mumble rap, and "country" stars that grew up ten minutes outside of Nashville. I think there's something to be said about the 60's, 70's, and 80's and the genres of the time being "novel", and maybe a lot of them are played out in a lot of ways - maybe - but I still stick to it that there's simply no room for actual artists or creatives in the larger entertainment industry. Or at the very least, very, very few of them. The big dogs in L.A. and N.Y. only want to put out what is calculated by their esoteric cabal of accountants to be a safe bet and a steady return on investment, so, unfortunately, I do not think my dream of a new renaissance of Prog Rock featuring young men with long hair and singing about wizards fighting dragons in space will happen anytime soon.
I would also say that I hoped the internet would democratize the process and open up the field for homegrown creatives to flourish outside the system, and, in a way, it has, but so many of the most promising people that were brought to popular prominence through the internet were A) never all that talented to begin with (i.e. every "influencer" ever) or B) quickly co-opted by the system (i.e. every early YouTuber that displayed a degree of proficiency for actual movie-making). Same goes for the music scene.
I agree. Things are played out but also the industry plays it safe. The internet is great, but the fragmentation means these awesome artists will never reach the level of cultural awareness needed to matter. Rock is a spent force that blew its last wad in the early 2000s. To riff on the album name of the last band with guitars whom I think actually made an impact, yes, that was it.
God, I can't imagine that we will ever have another Bowie anytime soon, a real artist that could invent and re-invent himself every few years.
This phenomenon you are refering to was one of Mark Fishers main topics, the idea of Hauntology, stuff just coming back to haunt us over and over but shittier and shitter every time.
Beloved ideals are meant to be loved from a distance of time; they are not meant to be resurrected over and over again. Eternally rebooted ideas aren't memories - they're zombies.
Greta Van Fleet is both obnoxious and... actually not bad? At the same time? Vocalist has some pipes, and it's nice to hear Actual Guitar on the radio when it isn't a classic rock station. But they're also obnoxious.
That’s a good way of putting it: they’re talented, but the music is a retread. I guess if you’ve never listened to Led Zeppelin or AC/DC or Aerosmith, you might be intrigued, but I’d rather just listen to Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, or Aerosmith.
I feel like the more they ditch the Led Zeppelin imitation and find their own style, the more I'd willingly listen to them. I think they're still too young to be called hacks, but they are being guided/promoted by hacks, which is just as frustrating.
They are talented, although I wouldn’t say anything spectacular. To keep the Zep comparison going, when you listen to Zep for the first time, you go, “Holy shit, that drummer! That guitarist! That singer!” (Poor John Paul Jones). With Greta Van Fleet, you go “Holy shit, that singer . . . sounds like he’s doing Robert Plant.”
Have you ever listened to Dirt Poor Robins? One of the primary reasons I enjoy their music is the amount of variation they implement in their music. On the same album, you can hear radically different styles!
One band that I really enjoyed in the early 2000s up until 2015 was The Mars Volta. That such a proggy and intrepid band as they were has such success was inexplicable. I agree on the fragmentation of music via the Internet. You actively have to go find it, but at least it's there.
The biggest problem with 311 are the vocals and lyrics. Not that Nick Hexum and Doug Martinez have bad voices—quite the opposite, actually: their voices are really good and blend well together. It’s the lame rapping and cringy lyrics.
It's a problem of marketing, mostly. But I do know that most Zoomers that are creative tend to look back to the 20th century for inspiration simply because the stuff they grew up with and were told was great, simply, well, isn't. You have to have a base to build from, and their base was broken from the get-go.
Back when Iron Age magazine started last year there were people wondering why no one was making action adventure magazines before them, and they were all pointed toward Cirsova, which had been running for over half a decade at that point. The people complaining simply didn't know they existed, because there isn't really any reach or platforms for such things to get out anymore. If we want something we will not get it from any sort of aggregator or trusted hub. That's a difficult adjustment for older generations who always relied on such things, but that's going to be how it is for awhile. Finding good art yourself is now part of the process thanks to the failure of the mainstream to do its job.
We have to do the legwork ourselves.
I get where Zoomers are coming from, and I know a lot are doing new stuff inspired by the past. That’s great! I hope they continue to be inspired by, and not imitative of. We don’t need a new thing that’s kinda like Robert E. Howard or whatever. We need people to write and create in their own voices.
Do you know what Zoomers are good at? Comedy. They have a strain of absurdism that seems to be the only way to view clown world and stay sane. I love it.
That’s right; we can learn from the old masters, but we must live and write in our own time. Isekai and LitRPG are not degeneration, but the continued evolution of literature.
This right here. The internet shattered mainstream culture into a million niches, and though the gatekeepers have discredited themselves, the good stuff does not get found because it’s lost in an ocean of content.
I also believe it’s why there’s so much vitriol online — it’s the *only* way to be seen. Creatives didn’t have to worry about that before because not only did publishers, agencies, and studios handle that for them, people still got their information from established, centralized sources.
But the Internet broke the established sources too. Now they too had to join the outrage game, just to compete. I must say, global pop culture is poorer for it.
The fragmentation into niche subcultures is a blessing and a curse. Everyone can find a hyper-specific bit of culture that appeals to THEM and maybe 50 other people, but it becomes so insular it’s hard to see it sticking around. I have no answer to this problem.
Neither do I. It’s the nature of the current media environment.
I will defend pixel art in modern games here: it looks good, and it can be done on a budget. Remember, most indies don’t have a big war chest.
As for the endless nostalgia, I think there may be another reason for it: it’s safe. If you create something new, you risk the wrath of a million neon-haired activists calling you the worst istophobe since George W. Bush. And even if it doesn’t end in a tearful apology for not following the dictates of the decentralized censorship board, it might not sell. Against that kind of risk, strip-mining the 1980s will last you until the Gen Y types die out around the 2060s or so.
Then again, the Japanese manage to get new IPs out and make them popular; maybe that’s why anime and manga have gotten so popular. But we’re running out of Japanese folks, so that’ll have a limited shelf life.
You make good points. Maybe what is to blame are the self-imposed political restrictions that prevent those in control from telling stories that resonate. We can’t have a big dumb man rescue a princess from a dragon anymore, for example.
I have a theory that so much work is weak because anything that arouses strong emotions risks cancellation. Better to write safe stuff that won’t ruffle feathers, I guess.
If anything, this reinforces my own answer of the melting pot. The problem with "progression" is that there is simply a finite amount of innovation at our disposal. Technological, conceptual, etc. There is only so much "new" can mean in the world of art. So when faced with a world not interested in innovation, on top of the fact that feels like there is nowhere left to innovate, what do you do?
In my case, you shove everything you love in a blender, hit puree, and hope for the best lol. So the strains and traces of what was are there in varying degrees, but it's all brought together in a way that no one really has.
100 percent. That’s what creativity is, right? Combining things, seeing connections where others don’t? That’s what artists in all mediums have done since the beginning of art. So keep it up!
I've been saying this recently. People give me shit because I say music was better in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, but I think the world was objectively better when Prog Rock and Metal bands of the time were writing songs about abjectly crazy shit, and today almost everything is a tepid, sludgy blend of the worst pop music you've ever heard, the last vestiges of unintelligble mumble rap, and "country" stars that grew up ten minutes outside of Nashville. I think there's something to be said about the 60's, 70's, and 80's and the genres of the time being "novel", and maybe a lot of them are played out in a lot of ways - maybe - but I still stick to it that there's simply no room for actual artists or creatives in the larger entertainment industry. Or at the very least, very, very few of them. The big dogs in L.A. and N.Y. only want to put out what is calculated by their esoteric cabal of accountants to be a safe bet and a steady return on investment, so, unfortunately, I do not think my dream of a new renaissance of Prog Rock featuring young men with long hair and singing about wizards fighting dragons in space will happen anytime soon.
I would also say that I hoped the internet would democratize the process and open up the field for homegrown creatives to flourish outside the system, and, in a way, it has, but so many of the most promising people that were brought to popular prominence through the internet were A) never all that talented to begin with (i.e. every "influencer" ever) or B) quickly co-opted by the system (i.e. every early YouTuber that displayed a degree of proficiency for actual movie-making). Same goes for the music scene.
I agree. Things are played out but also the industry plays it safe. The internet is great, but the fragmentation means these awesome artists will never reach the level of cultural awareness needed to matter. Rock is a spent force that blew its last wad in the early 2000s. To riff on the album name of the last band with guitars whom I think actually made an impact, yes, that was it.
God, I can't imagine that we will ever have another Bowie anytime soon, a real artist that could invent and re-invent himself every few years.
This phenomenon you are refering to was one of Mark Fishers main topics, the idea of Hauntology, stuff just coming back to haunt us over and over but shittier and shitter every time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauntology
Mark Fisher! He’s the guy. I was having difficulty remembering his name. I think we are seeing the same things as before, just lamer.
There are some musical artists who are Bowie-esque chameleons, but they tend to be rather niche, unlike Bowie who everyone knew about.
Beloved ideals are meant to be loved from a distance of time; they are not meant to be resurrected over and over again. Eternally rebooted ideas aren't memories - they're zombies.
YES. One thousand times yes!
Greta Van Fleet is both obnoxious and... actually not bad? At the same time? Vocalist has some pipes, and it's nice to hear Actual Guitar on the radio when it isn't a classic rock station. But they're also obnoxious.
I'm on the fence.
That’s a good way of putting it: they’re talented, but the music is a retread. I guess if you’ve never listened to Led Zeppelin or AC/DC or Aerosmith, you might be intrigued, but I’d rather just listen to Led Zeppelin, AC/DC, or Aerosmith.
Exactly. Great as a gateway band so to speak, for kids more used to pop music.
They’re very talented but also complete hacks. It’s jarring because hacks are usually a subpar version of the thing they’re trying to emulate.
I feel like the more they ditch the Led Zeppelin imitation and find their own style, the more I'd willingly listen to them. I think they're still too young to be called hacks, but they are being guided/promoted by hacks, which is just as frustrating.
That’s fair. A lot of talent there, it will be interesting to see if they can develop their own sound.
They are talented, although I wouldn’t say anything spectacular. To keep the Zep comparison going, when you listen to Zep for the first time, you go, “Holy shit, that drummer! That guitarist! That singer!” (Poor John Paul Jones). With Greta Van Fleet, you go “Holy shit, that singer . . . sounds like he’s doing Robert Plant.”
All the right people are here to weigh in on this.
1997.
Important year.
https://brianniemeier.com/2018/01/ground-zero/
https://wastelandandsky.blogspot.com/2020/12/cultural-ground-zero.html
All the right people indeed 😎
Have you ever listened to Dirt Poor Robins? One of the primary reasons I enjoy their music is the amount of variation they implement in their music. On the same album, you can hear radically different styles!
No, but I like the name of their band!
They are excellent 👌 I recommend starting here https://youtu.be/C6LWkp5VhCQ?si=2mrlz2iRvoC48kIJ
One band that I really enjoyed in the early 2000s up until 2015 was The Mars Volta. That such a proggy and intrepid band as they were has such success was inexplicable. I agree on the fragmentation of music via the Internet. You actively have to go find it, but at least it's there.
Ditto! They were wild and overblown and I loved nearly every second of it.
I don’t have their most recent though.
A huge letdown. Don't bother.
Dammit, man, I am trying SO hard not to lose all the respect I have for you after finding out you like Coheed and Cambria.
I also like 311 (in measured doses) so flame away.
I'm not a 311 fan by any stretch of the imagination, but "Down" and "You Wouldn't Believe" are legit.
The biggest problem with 311 are the vocals and lyrics. Not that Nick Hexum and Doug Martinez have bad voices—quite the opposite, actually: their voices are really good and blend well together. It’s the lame rapping and cringy lyrics.
Instrumentally? They’re one of the best.